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「全員がルールを確認した上で守っていること」と、
「不文律だけれどみんなが守っていること(判定を騙らない、能力者COで嘘をつかない等)をルールと定義すること」って全然別の話ですよね?って言ってるつもりなんだけれど、annさんは何か僕の知らない前提を通して僕の言葉を解釈してるんじゃないですかね。
tohkaとthoka……違和感がない!
tohkaちゃんとは暫く会っていないと思ったら、水面下で熊沢さんといちゃいちゃしてたのね。
瓜科では禁止行為として明文化されてるけど、リア充では暗黙の了解になってると思われるルールがある。
例えば
>(1)セキュリティ的に問題のある行為
>当然禁止ですし、そのようなことが判明した場合は問答無用でBANします。
<http://melon-cirrus.sakura.ne.jp>
この辺の話がリア充国では・・・というかゆーろさんの中では、この辺が紳士協定・暗黙の了解・マナー・モラル・常識なんだと思う。
一方で瓜姫様は
「紳士協定・暗黙の了解・マナー・モラル・常識だから言わなくても分かるやろ?」
とならずに、禁止行為として明文化しておく必要があると思ったんだろう。(いや、瓜姫様も「当然」とか言ってるけど。)
そう言えば俺がannさんの話をしていたときも、俺の主張と熊木さんの主張の話が出てきていたような。
「ルール違反かそうでないか」を考えるときに、暗黙の了解というものについては、不文律である以上はルールには当たらない、というのは正しい判断だと思うが、
だからといって暗黙の了解(=明文化されてないけど皆が守っている規律)そのものの存在が消えうせるわけじゃねえよな…というツッコミだったんだけど、伝わってなかったですかね。
異教徒のサクマリトがイエスのために道を譲ると暗黙の了解は消滅した。トマスが異教徒を捕まえて牢屋にいれるかと訪ねるとイエスは言った。見えている暗黙の了解は暗黙の了解ではない…見えているものだけを見てはならぬ。暗黙の了解は存在し続けているのだ。そして我らの父はそれをよしと言われた。(ルカ伝 23章)
一時期の「初日FOの方が分かりやすくて好み」がほぼ一字違わず量産されてたのは面白かったな。
多分G国初期だろう。従来の投票COができなくなった頃だし。知らんけども。
人狼ゲーム中で明文化されていない「前提」なるものは確かに存在するが、大抵それらは「そうしたほうがゲームをやるうえで都合がよいから」という理由で守られているものであり、それは紳士協定とか暗黙の了解というよりは単にセオリーと呼ぶべきものですよね、と僕は考えているので、
紳士協定って何?という疑問の答えは「ルールではないので強制力はまったくないが、皆がゲームを円滑に進行するために守っている不文律であり、ほとんどの場合においてセオリーと呼ぶべきものです」になる。
同じ場面に遭遇したそれぞれ別の人物が、最善手を取ろうと一定の行動に収束することを、定石とかセオリーとか呼ぶと思うんですが、「やりやすいようにやる」「そのほうが慣れてる」って、正にこれなんじゃないですかね。
そもそもねこらび君が言い出した珍ワードなのだから、ねこらび君がどういう意味で言ってたのかを考えるならともかく、紳士協定自体を考える意味はほとんどないと思うけども。
得体の知れない処理目線ってなに?!と言われても織物さんが作り出した大変語感のよい言葉なだけだし…。
ダーウィドも熊沢さんも話を盛ってると思うんだけど
・「判定騙りをしない」のがその村の紳士協定や暗黙の了解なら、それに違反すればマナー違反
・セオリーなら、裏をかいても良い
だろうねぇ。
盛るという行為においては、
ann=andantese説に加え、ankokumen=tohka説など次々と珍説を発表しているのぶまささんが一番信用できないかな。
▼のぶまさを提出しときます。
ルール…明文化されている守らなければならない規律。
暗黙の了解…明文化されていないが、一般的にはこれに沿った行動をとるのがよいとされているもの。状況によっても変化する。
・暗黙の了解を守ることはルールで強制されている行為ではないし、かといって暗黙の了解から外れた行為を行うことはルール違反ではない。
・人狼ゲーム内において、暗黙の了解の多くは定石・セオリーと定義でき、後者に該当するのであればそう呼ぶべきである。
・「真が判定騙りをしないこと」は、(ルールにもよるが)暗黙の了解として認識されているといえるが、その目的を考えると、定石やセオリーと呼ぶべきものである。
僕はずっとこういう主張をしています。
ルール…明文化されている守らなければならない規律。
暗黙の了解…明文化されていないが、互いが認識し、守っている前提の不文律。
定石(セオリー)…明文化されていないが、一般的にはこれに沿った行動をとるのがゲームの進行上よいとされているもの。状況によっても変化する。
>熊沢さん
不文律=暗黙のルールってWikipediaに書いてあるで。
>不文律
>明言されていない規則やしきたりのこと。暗黙のルール、暗黙の掟と言うこともある。
<https://ja.wikipedia.org>
「ルール=明文化されてモノ」という認識は間違いなのでは?
熊川さんがそう言う風に主張していることとは無関係にannさんは意見を言っているので、鹿山さんが主張しててもしてなくても畢竟同じかなとは思ってはいた。
annさん個人がいくら暗黙の了解とセオリーを別物だと考えていたとしても、何よりも不文律である以上はその点についての認識が各プレイヤーによってバラバラなので、
暗黙の了解=ルール(に近いもの)と認識するより、暗黙の了解はむしろセオリーに近いものと認識したほうが現実的なんじゃねえの、というのが僕の立場です。
鹿沢さんが「全プレイヤーがルールを守るのが暗黙の了解ではない」なんて言ってたことになってるなんて初めて知ったわ。
しかし、tohkaとthokaの区別が曖昧な牛沢さんなのでここで言う暗黙の了解はギリシャ語のホモなのかラテン語のホモなのか、そしてギリシャ語だと思って言ってるのかラテン語だと思って言ってるのかで話が掴めない。
私はそんなことは言っていないこともなくはなくはなくはないのだよ…どっちだ?分からん。
新着発言はありません。RELOAD最終取得時刻 --:--:--
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